i agree caldari pride themselves on haveing the most advanced weapon systems of all the factions witch they pride there missles over every other race. also seing as all there ships are shield bassed ships it would imply there shield tech is better than all other empire faction ships. so why is every other empire over takeing caldari with shield tanking ships ?

if your talking to me liu your right i have limited pvp experience even on my main char and no i wont divulge my main chracter as i like it haveing a relatively relaxed life i dont care much for pvp as my mear 20 mill sp means i get munched 90% of the time.

as you have brought it up however condors will still need to fit some kinda shielding as i said the condor lacks speed and needs to be within the brawl deadly range of guns most of the time to use prop jammers. but aint i also right in saying auto's and atilary dont relly on cap either yet you guys are specificaly going after the caldari ships.

this however being said with mwd a web and possibly a waarp jammer/ scrambler will leave what 1 open mid slot to fit a shield a small shield extender most likely wont take much to get through yet other ships will be able to fill all 3 or 4 mis slots with there support moduals and then fursther procead to dec out there low slots with tank not a dmg mod to help them along a lil.

if you wish to continue this lil chat and you prolly will repost and tell me im wrong and give decent reasons instead of oh but missles or mid slots as it wont wash as ive just pointed out.

!1. oh i know you lern more through defeat that victory ive always said that. :P and yeah i can hold my own against a lot of oponents but ide prefer to keep my pvp to a time of my choseing in low or null sec not everyone tom **** and harry trying to gank me when im chilling.

2. trying to fit an active shield tank onto a condor or any frigate is a job and a half i havent however been on sisi recently to cheack out the new ones however im still going with the point of probably cap hungry witch makes them extream diffucult to fit with other cap sucking abilities even with an asb i dont think you would last the reload if in a brawl fight. also as im sure we all know that after a caldaries shield is down there toast unlike an armour tanker were they can still sustain a fair amount of punishment especialy to kinetic missles.

3.as you said the condor is the slowest and the heaviest of the ships witch makes it after getting into point range diffucult to dictate range. and the caldari weapons systems do not increase dmg bassed on an optimal range.

4. again though i find this point and a td to be less of an issue as tds are not a gurante disruption and if they are they are the problem not the caldari ships maybe td's should be called into question and there effectiveness over caldari ships. as close range guns will generate more dps than even rocket launchers. infact the only way i have ever managed to win against a brawler is to pull extream range on it from the start and hopefull put him into half armour before he gets to me again you may disagre but i still stand that unless the caldari ships can fit decent tanks they will be baten 90% of the time by brawlers.

5. however over and above all this i do have to say your missing a big point eve isnt just all about pvp although that may be a big part and the life of a lot in eve its not the be all and end all these ships still have to be usable as mission running ships also.

hope this makes my opinions a lil clearer to you lili lu

well nobody is whining over the dual x-large asb rohk. which is your proposed uber-cyclone on steroids.
how did you engage those cyclones? passive/buffer heavy missile drake?

and the breacher will do nothing like that because any cruiser with a web and em/therm damage profile will rofl stomp it to hell.

The tristan was nice, and so was the breacher, the kestrel (for long range setups) might need a little more cpu

Let me explain:

The tristan has its flexibility both in armor or shiled setups and range with guns and drones to make it as a well versed all round combat ship, suitable both for PvP and PvE

The breacher brings in another condor like ship, with slightly different damage / speed / tank ratios, and this one i would really love to see an assault version of. This ship could become the next classical example of utelizing different strengths and weaknesses in the TII lineup if the breacher was made an assault ship vs the crow as an interceptor.

The caldari already have a good brawler, and a good fast ship so i tried to see the kestrel in action as a mid to long range combat frigate, as its bonus to missile range suggests

I wanted to fit (TII fitted) 4 launchers, a mwd, a remote sensor damp, a long range point, a sensor booster, and 2 bcu's but even with 3 cpu rigs, i could not do this. I can dump the bcu's for tracking enhancers or overdrives to make it fit, but without the tracking enhancers update for missiles implemented at this point, i can't determine if the damage to range ratio suits me. Also the fact that you don't have the option to choose concerns me.

In the tristan i could get a mwd, medium shield extender, point, some guns, 2 drone damage, and an overdrive on there, and with skills i would have over 170 dps at 60 km more speed and a gigantic buffer compared with the kestrel, wich i had at nearly 110 dps 59 km range with 2 bcu's

So give a kestreal a slight cpu buf plz

That's my concern as well.
===
I have no problem with the Tristan not having missile bonuses, the current version doesn't either, but it would be nice to keep the missile hardpoints. The Gallente wouldn't have a dedicated missile boat, but they would have something they could fit missile launchers to just the same as it is now.

On a side note, please take a look at the nemesis, it has the same PG and less grid than Manticore, so there's no reason to use one. Also Roden is the one that makes Missile Ships, please change the Manufacturer from Duvolle.

I'd say the Ishkur is pretty bad compared to the Tristan.... why the heck would you pay 30 times the price for a bit more tank / dps, but less speed? It doesn't even get a drone tracking bonus.

Well Minmatar do not know that but actually other races haven-¦t that op ships so that there is a ton off ships other races don-¦t use....
Ever tried to build something like a range Harbinger that can be equal with an arty cane? Well try it and have fun with frustration.
We engaed an arty cane fleet some days ago. Of course we jumped there and there until we engaged them at gate because at range we would be annon fodder.
Well. Cane is faster than even amarr and most caldari cruisers so wemanaged to kill one or two until they were at optimal range and away from us and as always we had to chicken out.
Actually there is almost anything to engage an arty cane or nano arty sfi. Drakes are okay here. But even drakes have probs with 3200m/s sfi.
Interceptors are dying like flies before they get close, sfi are burning with 3200 or even 3500m/s away to alpha us and so on.
The combination of awesome speed plus awesome range plus awesome alpha plus close range damage where railguns only can dream of hitting anything is tooooo much. Really.



That is it. Breacher has as Brawler almost kestrel firepower but is alot more fast and has better tank. Okay super it has less range. I did not compare the breacher directly with Kestrel. I compared it directly to incursus.

I barely see rifters anymore. With the merlin getting a resist bonus, the punisher getting a resist bonus and the Incursus getting a extreme repping bonus... and all of them performing very well now (and the Rifter seemingly left in the dust frankly) Seems like the Breacher and the Shield Boost should be wrapped up with them as Combat frigates while the Rifter should be wrapped in with the Attack frigate roles?

(i'm trying to bring this back around to the breacher and talk about the rifter, and not derail ;p )


Also, as I talk about this, I realize that you may have changed the 4 basic "roles" you had in mind? Since you've doubled up on combat frigates for each race.

Attack, Combat, Bombardment, Support ?

Is the bombardment role replaced conceptually at this point, since many aren't getting missile roles at all?

That it loses to other frigs is just a footnote to how badly it loses to the Slasher, and talking about that might make you more sympathetic to people who complain about it: Punisher/Merlin/Incursus/Rifter are supposed to win on tank+gank when compared with Executioner/Condor/Atron/Slasher. Presently none of them have a gank advantage. Presently all of them have a really substantial tank advantage - except for the Rifter.

I know this question isn't THAT important. But.... wondering if the Kestrel will get the same revamped ship model that the Manticore has ATM?

and Why.... why...Why why why why why why why


Why

Tank and speed are in line with the fact that it is a T1 frigate supposed to fight at mid range mostly. The lack of powergrid (and CPU) makes for some interesting choices for the fitting. You basically have to choose between guns or tanks and find a way to fit DDAs (well at least one) with tight CPU. Personally, I see that again as a way to limit it because it is T1 (even if you already need a ton of skills to fly it properly).

I do agree though that the tracking speed bonus to the turret is underwhelming.

With only 2 turret hardpoints and no damage boost for it (and not enough PG to use a nos or a neut on that 3rd high slot) you have very poor reasons to fit it as a brawler, especially with that speed. Railgun seem like the logical choice ... especially since a tracking bonus helps it too.
The problem is that 2 railguns without a damage boost will deal at best 20% of your DPS (and you sacrificed your tank to get that) which de facto makes this bonus underwhelming.
Somewhat, I guessed they wanted this bonus not to be too good anyway but right now you really have little reasons not to go for a tank and ACs (to deal with drones).

Going for an optimal range or a direct damage boost would give you a better reason to go for railguns IMO and would still be limited by the 2 turrets hardpoints. Add to that a small boost to PG and/or CPU and it would be perfect for some easier fitting.

Oh and people are excited about it because it is a frigate droneboat ... and as such arguably better than an Ishkur.
It's all about the drones not the rest of the hull :)

Come on CCP, 50% rep bonus + more powergrid.

Firstly, thanks for the honest reply.
It seems obvious to me that the main point of disagreement we have is about the role the Tristan is supposed to be used as.

IMO, the Tristan is supposed to be the Gallente DPS frig using our faction preferred weapon system : drones. Drones clearly have issues and their damage application depends on a lot more variables than any other weapon systems. Regardless, all the drone issues (especially for PvP) should not be corrected by the Tristan hull but by fixing some of those broken mechanisms.

You seem to want to use Tristan as a brawler (a role an Incursus fulfill perfectly indeed). It is your right but I really don't think CCP intends to make the Tristan as effective as an Incursus in that role and that they actually should. They are several ways to apply damage as a frigate and brawling is just one of them.

Personnaly, I don't see the incursus and the Tristan thrive in the same situations. While the incursus is excellent for solo-PvP for example, I really don't think the tristan will thrive in this situation but I could be wrong (basically kite him and kill the drones first and you can be sure he won't kill you). On the other hand, the Tristan will be effective for PvE and small fleets IMO.
Since every faction has two frigates designed for combat, they should thrive in different situations IMO so that's alright.

The problem is that with those fitting options, I don't see how the turret tracking bonus can be usefull.
I would much prefer a turret range bonus (to fit with the idea that normal range damage projection does not apply to this frigate) than that tracking bonus. Optimal or falloff depends on the weapon of choice they want to use with it.

Change that and give it a small boost to PG/CPU (even 2-3PG and 5 CPU would help a lot) and I would find it a lot more balanced. Obviously, a bigger boost to PG or CPU would help too but I'm not sure it is needed if we can get a real second bonus.

Railguns *love* tracking bonus. In fact, I'd prefer a tracking bonus than a range bonus.

Hum, I forgot the only two turret thing.

Though, when orbiting at range, I found tracking to be a lot more useful than dps with the Atron, and the dps is poor anyway at this range, so unless you want blasters, you are better with tracking IMO.

Just compare the new Tristan to a Rifter and you will see that it is totally viable.

Actually, I was talking about the 3 drones used by the Comet.

People have said (with some good reasons) that drone damage is not really reliable and that is why they would rather have a more balanced damage output (so like the Comet or the Ishkur but I did not want to bring that one just yet ^^).

The new tristan is neither of them and I guess it is not supposed to do the same things.

It is clearly a droneboat IMO (others are brawlers with drones) which has its upside (like the pure DPS potential) and downside (well drones are drones ...). That is why I'm excited to fly this new frigate even if I'm sure it will only be effective in niche roles.

That said, I'm still not convinced with the turret tracking bonus and the fitting could be made a bit easier.
I just think the Gallente has enough frigate brawlers (with or without drones) and I'm against adding a bonus that would make it one.

Well, I've been struggling to figure out a fit that would make the Tristan work with its bonuses despite its fitting shortcomings and thought I would throw this out there to get an opinion on it. I used EFT but figured in the new CPU/PG of the ship.

[High slots]
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
Core Probe Launcher II

[Mid slots]
Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

[Low slots]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

[Rigs]
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Drones]
5x Hobgoblin II
3x Warrior SW-300 (or light ECM's)

That'd be an Incursus.



The Tristan problem and the Rifter problem seem to be similar. Both have a 3m/3l layout that makes them worse at brawling (also at kiting, ewar application and pretty much everything) than competitive ships, yet at the same time they lack raw damage / maneuverability / fitting options to make up for that.
Fitting options especially regarding the utility highslots that can often only barely be filled without gimping the desired fitting.

For the love of god, can somebody please post a decent Tristan fit with a damage control mod in the low?

I find this fit very interesting for solo work. Gonna be fun.

100 dps with hob II's. + 43 dps per light neutron blaster

[Tristan, Mini-Sentinel]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II/ Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/ Light Neutron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I/Light Nuetron Blaster II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I

Hobgoblin II x5

-----

I find those fits underwhelming because its designed to kite, not tank, you wont need 3 fitting rigs to make a kiting set up, it can out run, out dps, out range and out tank the current Rifter when fit similarly .

it can put out good damage around the 20k mark and will hit over 3200m/s cold, so why fit it as a brawler when the Incursus is superior at the task.

I quite like the Tristan, it will be one of my preferred ships given itGÇÖs flexibility and I like the bonuses and slot layout, fittings not so much.

It seems to have the lowest CPU and pretty much lowest powergrid of the frigates, the utility high really needs to be filled with a nos/neut and yet powergrid was remove with the loss of a high and the launchers, the launchers though never used up much grid so I find this harsh.

CPU is particularly harsh given drone upgrades and rigs are CPU intensive.

I was thinking of this (requires 1% power grid implant I believe), still 2 fitting mods makes it feel pre-nerfed and none of the other frigates seem to have this sort of issue. Dropping to ions does not even help as you still need the rigs. Just under 5k EHP and 200DPS. I figure tracking bonus may mean I can use void if I can get close.

[Tristan, DPS]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x3

Meh dps ? I don't know in which world you are playing EVE, but it's not the same than most of us play.

Blasters (especially Neutrons that can swap to Null) and Drones apply DPS fine to scrammed and webbed targets within that range.

Really the point of the post has to post a reasonable fit with expected mods and highlight the ships major flaw in a constructive way, itGÇÖs fitting issues. A touch more powergrid and CPU will benefit all configurations.